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Theology for Dummies


 Thoughts about Independence Day
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On this fourth of July I thought I would take a few minutes to reflect on the truly wonderful statement in the Declaration of Independence, penned by Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson condensed a long history of Western thought on human rights with these words.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Jefferson, of course, did not mean that all humans are equally alike in ability or personal gifts. What he meant it that all men are created by God with an equal endowment of rights that no human government can either give them or take away from them. As Americans, we are a fortunate and blessed people that the signers of the Declaration expressed these words in our nation’s founding document. I believe that without these words: “all men,” “created equal,” “endowed,” “their Creator,” and “unalienable” that Americans could, in short order, find themselves possessing a very truncated set of freedoms.

As you may know, there are many critics of the Declaration’s preamble. The critique of the preamble usually centers on the notions of “self-evident” truths and a “Creator” that endows men with rights. However, in my view, it is precisely these notions that insure human rights from governmental tyranny. In fact, from the perspective of the Founding Fathers, these notions were the justification for the American rebellion against British tyranny and the basis for the establishment of a system by which the people grant to the government certain powers rather than the government granting rights to its citizens.

I believe it is also good to reflect on the recent decision by the Supreme Court which struck down a Washington, D.C. gun ban. This decision also reinforced the Founder’s purpose for the Second Amendment to the Constitution in that it clarified its reading as one which allows private citizens to bear arms. It is certain that during the formative years of American history the Second Amendment was understood to safeguard the private citizen’s right to defend himself against tyrannical government. In other words, the Founders believed that the right to defend one’s life against unjust threat was an inherent right granted by the Creator and extended to the people against the tyranny of governments.

While I am a strong advocate of an ordered society and strongly opposed to vigilantism; I also am very grateful for the notions embedded in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence. I am also grateful for the Second Amendment. Without these, I believe that society and government could easily devolve into a sad situation where might-makes-right and—in that case—guess what, the government would have all the might.
Posted by Thomisticguy at 1:15 PM - 43 Comments   Add a Comment  
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Comments:

Thomisticguy, This blog is something I could very well have written. MY entire theory of human life on earth begins with the premise that man must be absolutely free. So in Jefferson's sense I don't mind the use of the term "Creator" to simplify first cause, if you will. I do a lot of writing, putting my views of human existence on paper for posterity. Most of what I write has been writ before, John Locke, Herbert Spencer, Adam Smith, to mention a few guys. But what I have written is not on tracing paper, I have figured it all out for myself, beginning with Aristotle, and yes, Ayn Rand, who showed me the way. As I understand it, Jefferson wasn't too big on Religion,he was much too intelligent,wonder about Franklin. Another genius. Never read anything about his religious convictions. just his almanac, and much of his view of Freedom. What did Rousseau write? Man is born free yet everywhere he is in chains! If the US ever needed a new Franklin or Jefferson or Madison, now is most assuredly the time. This is the kind of stuff I like to read from you, have a great July 4th, Frankie  
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by Frankie (PM , CC ) on Friday July 4, 2008 @ 1:48 PM




Frankie: may you have a great Fourth of July as well. The Fourth is actually one of my favorite holidays. I really enjoy the celebration of our freedoms, fireworks, and having BBQ with family and friends. It's hard to get any more "American" than that!  
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Friday July 4, 2008 @ 4:52 PM




Good thoughts.

Our nation was founded when the Declaration was signed, and it strains credulity beyond the breaking point to suggest that wildly different interpretations of its content existed in the minds of those signers, as some of those who would re-write our history ask us to believe. The most likely result of their action seemed to be their inevitable execution for treason. I think it's safe to say they knew exactly what they were signing, they knew exactly what it meant, and they really really meant it.

As you so articulately pointed out, the Declaration did not spring from nowhere, nor from the mind of a single man. It was many years in the making, with its foundation at the very source of our civilization.

Although there would not be a Second Amendment for over a decade, it is (I would have thought) just as obvious that its primary intention was - as with each of the first ten Articles - "to insure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" just as the Preamble states. For what other possible reason could the Second Amendment be there other than to insure the individual right to bear arms? Yet, to hear the arguments being carried on today you would think we were discussing the finer grammatical points of a long-lost language.

So - all of that is to say, Happy Independence Day. I've cleaned my guns, said my prayers, and I thank God for our great nation.
 
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by John, the Squabbler (PM , CC ) on Friday July 4, 2008 @ 7:35 PM




John wrote: So - all of that is to say, Happy Independence Day. I've cleaned my guns, said my prayers, and I thank God for our great nation.

●Your comment reminds me of the 1631 Virginia statute requiring colonists "to bring their peeces (muskets) to church" for target practice. Modern Americans are grossly uninformed about the pervasiveness of firearm ownership at the founding of the American experience and how this was linked in their minds with the freedoms that we now enjoy. In fact, I believe a solid case could be made that without the availability of well-manufactured firearms, the American revolution could not have succeeded. Imagine if Independence Day would have been in 1476 instead of 1776. The possibility of a militia of Americans squaring off with mounted knights, heavy infantry, and trained archers seems humorous. However, a Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifleman firing from behind a tree at 300 yards is a wholly different matter.

 
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Friday July 4, 2008 @ 8:31 PM




Having grown up in a different country and not residing in the US until I was 30, I have a slightly different perspective on the Second Amendment.

I think the Second Amendment, like any historical document, must be read in the context of its creation. Thom, I think you have tried to do this. The country was born out of the end of the muzzle. The belief that an armed citizenry was necessary to protect itself from a tyrannous government was rooted out of the War of Independence (which I learned to call the Revolutionary War when I went to school studying from texts clearly influenced from a British perspective.)

I find it curious that there is rather naive belief that an armed citizenry could take on the current US military and overthrow the current government. Do you really think that such a possibility really exists? There are many people very angry with the current government over its policies. You may not agree with their anger - but they feel that the current government should be put out of office. If they decide to use arms to do so, would they be successful? It is doubtful. Of course, if the military leadership agrees with the armed citizenry then they may have a chance (read the latest Army leadership's evaluation of the war in Iraq to find the dissent with the White House and its policies regarding the war).

My curiousity with this naivety springs from the many 'peaceful' revolutions in modern history beginning with my own birth country, Canada. I think the American belief that the musket is the way for revolution is born out of its own experience rather than from a study of which points to many revolutions which were brought about through peaceful means.

Of a note closer to home about the current use of the musket to bring about democracy. I am now working with Iraqi Christians who are fleeing Iraq because the instability created by our entrance into that country. These are English-speaking, college-educated middle class Christians. I have not met many who actually are grateful for what our policies created for them. They had a wonderful life under Saddam Hussein. Interestiingly, the moment they become refugees in Syria or Jordan, they are almost immediately wisked to our country. The average life of a refugee in most parts of the world is between 8-15 years; in Jordan and Syria it is about four weeks or less. The existence of these Christian refugees is a very big political and ethical issue for this government. 60 Minutes did an expose on the treatment of Christians in Iraq last weekend. Once Christians in this country fully understand what the Bush government has unleashed on Christians in Iraq, the support for this war and these policies will further decrease from the very people this government believed would support this war without question.

Those are my thoughts.
 
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by AZRON (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 5, 2008 @ 1:31 PM




Thom,

If you haven't read Justice Scalia's majority opinion, you might be interested in its discussion of the history of the Second Amendment.

According to Scalia (p.24):

Between the Restoration and the Glorious Revolution, the Stuart Kings Charles II and James II succeeded in using select militias loyal to them to suppress political dissidents, in part by disarming their opponents. See J. Malcolm, To Keep and Bear Arms 31–53 (1994) (hereinafter Malcolm); L. Schwoerer, The Declaration of Rights,
1689, p. 76 (1981). Under the auspices of the 1671 Game Act, for example, the Catholic James II had ordered general disarmaments of regions home to his Protestant enemies. See Malcolm 103–106. These experiences caused Englishmen to be extremely wary of concentrated
military forces run by the state and to be jealous of their arms.

They accordingly obtained an assurance from William and Mary, in the Declaration of Right (which was codified as the English Bill of Rights), that Protestants would never be disarmed: “That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defense suitable to
their conditions and as allowed by law.” 1 W. & M., c. 2,§7, in 3 Eng. Stat. at Large 441 (1689). This right has long been understood to be the predecessor to our Second Amendment. See E. Dumbauld, The Bill of Rights and What It Means Today 51 (1957); W. Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States of America 122 (1825)
(hereinafter Rawle). It was clearly an individual right, having nothing whatever to do with service in a militia. To be sure, it was an individual right not available to the whole population, given that it was restricted to Protestants, and like all written English rights it was held only against the Crown, not Parliament. See Schwoerer, To
Hold and Bear Arms: The English Perspective, in Bogus 207, 218; but see 3 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States §1858 (1833) (hereinafter Story) (contending that the “right to bear arms” is a “limitatio[n] upon the power of parliament” as well). But it was secured to them as individuals, according to “libertarian
political principles,” not as members of a fighting force.Schwoerer, Declaration of Rights, at 283; see also id., at 78; G. Jellinek, The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of Citizens 49, and n. 7 (1901) (reprinted 1979).


It's interesting how this history has been airbrushed out of our knowledge, our education and the discussions about the subject. I'd never heard about it until I read the opinion.

Also, it's interesting how my study of Aristotle and Aquinas has given me a different take on the Declaration's statement about the "pursuit of happiness."

Obviously, Jefferson was referring to the pursuit of the "good life" and not mere psychological euphoria.

Ron,

I have a problem with the living Constitution approach to interpretation. It essentially allows the elite who are represented by the graduates of elite law schools who are appointed to the Supreme Court to pick and choose among constitutional rights that they favor. Hence, only rednecks care about guns, so the living constitution - in the form of 4 justices - attempt to read the 2d Amendment out.

The problem is that what can be taken away, can be given, and then taken away. Today it's the 2d Amendment; tomorrow it may well be - and actually is when it comes to gay rights and abortion - the 1st Amendment.

That's not what the purpose of a written constitution is all about.
 
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by Peter Sean Bradley (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 5, 2008 @ 5:35 PM




Peter Sean,

I am not particularly arguing for a 'living' interpretation of the constitution. I am only arguing that trying to somehow believe that an armed citzenry is going to over throw this government is a highly quesitonable belief. Interestingly, the last major change to the US Constitution was formented by non-violence not by violence - I refer to the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s.

I don't own a gun and I don't have any particular interest in doing so. However, I wouldn't stop others from owning one or want to take their right to own one.

I am only questioning the argument that giving the citizens guns will make it possible for them to overthrow the government.
 
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by AZRON (PM , CC ) on Sunday July 6, 2008 @ 12:24 AM




Just a couple of thoughts.

I must say that I do own a shotgun and .22 rifle. I haven't shot them in ages, but I clean them regularly so if I do get out they will be in good working order.

I personally believe it would be ... foolish to not own a good shotgun or rifle where I live now, mostly because there was a momma bear and two cubs on our deck 2 days ago. I went out with the gun just in case that night. I carry a flashlight with me to check before going far from the door to my house when I take my dog out at night now too.

I believe this sheds more light on the purpose for guns being protected than just about anything. Certainly the people need to be protected for criminal action and even the government, but quite frankly I find it laughable to think of the people overthrowing the government with the difference in arms. No, consider that ordering people to bring guns with them to church for target practice afterwards might have something to do with wolves and big black bears and things take on a whole new meaning. By the way I am in VA so I can assure you that this is a problem now and must have been worse back in the day.

Anyways, I just want to point out a different way of looking at guns that city folk might not consider. There are people in my church that have had bears come through their sliding patio doors.
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Monday July 7, 2008 @ 11:23 AM




Puri,

Thanks for the smile on a Monday morning. Your perspective definitely gives new meaning to the idea about bring a musket to church
 
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by AZRON (PM , CC ) on Monday July 7, 2008 @ 11:31 AM




Since we are talking about the Constitution, its interesting that there are some amendments or clauses that folks will defend with everything they have and other rights secured in the same document are viewed at best as inconvenient technicalities used to "get off" bad guys.

If anyone is interested, Justice Scalia traces the history of one of these less popular clauses, the confrontation clause of the sixth amendment (the same one that gives you the right to a jury trial and right to a lawyer) in Crawford v Washington (see it here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-9410.ZO.html )

Scalia discusses the importance of cross examination and ultimately concludes; "Dispensing with confrontation because testimony is obviously reliable is akin to dispensing with jury trial because a defendant is obviously guilty."

When it comes to thinking about Independence Day, its useful to also consider some of these other rights and the impact they have on the American attempt to create a more just society. The second amendment gets a lot of love and attention and the first is obviously a lynchpin but the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments have as much to do with our individual freedoms as any of them.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Monday July 7, 2008 @ 8:54 PM




Try this again.

I personally get worked up about how much we ignore the 3rd Amendment.

As far as I know, the 3rd Amendment has never been litigated.

Oh, sure it emanates penumbras and whatnot, and every now and again people realize that the framers really meant that it and some other Amendments were intended to protect the constitutional right to sodomy.

But what about the fact that we don't have to quarter soldiers in our houses? That's a big deal, right?

My favorite constutional provision - the one that makes me proud to be an American - is, of course Article 2, Section 2, clauses 2 and 3 aka the Electoral College.

That baby saved us from the extended nightmare of an Alexander Hamilton and Arnold Schwarzenegger presidency, and thanks to that wise provision, Canadians like my partner and Ron can never hope to become president and thereby subvert our proud traditions by making us eat french fries with vinegar.

I'm proud to be an American, thank you!
 
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by Peter Sean Bradley (PM , CC ) on Monday July 7, 2008 @ 9:48 PM




Whats not to love about an electoral college that allows for the election of a president who comes in second in the popular vote?

 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 12:49 AM




Just as the Founders intended.

 
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by Peter Sean Bradley (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 10:29 AM




Ron wrote:

I find it curious that there is rather naive belief that an armed citizenry could take on the current US military and overthrow the current government. Do you really think that such a possibility really exists? There are many people very angry with the current government over its policies. You may not agree with their anger - but they feel that the current government should be put out of office. If they decide to use arms to do so, would they be successful? It is doubtful. Of course, if the military leadership agrees with the armed citizenry then they may have a chance (read the latest Army leadership's evaluation of the war in Iraq to find the dissent with the White House and its policies regarding the war).

●You are correct to assume that it would be completely naïve to think that citizens armed with pistols and rifles could successfully overthrow a modern tyrannical government. However, the reality is that portions of the military usually side with a significant armed rebellion. This has been true throughout the world and in the United States during the Civil War.
●Two other thoughts spring to mind. One is in regard to the so-called ban on “assault weapons.” Of course, as you know, criminals have plenty of assault weapons. An assault weapon is simply a medium caliber, short rifle or handgun that is capable of semi or fully automatic fire. Strong advocates of the Second Amendment believe the “ban” on such weapons is aimed directly at the concept of an armed citizenry that can resist tyrannical government. In modern warfare, the assault rifle is the weapon that “levels the playing field” as we have seen in Iraq and Afghanistan with the AK-47. You’ll also note that in most states Americans are not allowed to purchase the M-16 and its variants.
●My second thought is extremely politically incorrect. Many of my friends—particularly in law enforcement—dislike it when I share this thought, even though many of them privately agree with me. My thought is this, if the average citizen is trusting in law enforcement to protect him from criminal assault, he is badly mistaken. Law enforcement is exactly what the term implies—the enforcement of the law after it has been broken. In other words, the police are the one’s who will put yellow caution tape around your fallen body and add your murder to their long list of capital crimes they are trying to solve. Please recall the Columbine tragedy and how law enforcement clung to tight procedures that kept them from entering into the high school on a timely basis. This protected law enforcement officers from potential injury or death while it allowed the perpetrators the freedom to commit mayhem unimpeded and at will. You may want to also review what happened at Virginia Tech. Before the PC era, one of the first mass shootings in the United States happened at the University of Texas from the Texas Tower. Unfortunately for the perpetrator, he had to face armed resistance from citizens who were able to immediately get there hands on their high-powered rifles. It was actually an off-duty policeman and two armed citizens that bravely scaled the tower and ended the mayhem. I suggest that the carnage would be far worse if this happened today. Additionally, the idea of armed citizens returning fire on the campus of a major university and defending themselves against a maniac seems unthinkable today but in the early 60’s it seemed normal. America has changed a lot.

 
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 10:35 AM




I don't eat French Fries with or without vinegar

 
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by AZRON (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 11:24 AM




This statistic is scary:

"The study by the new McCormick Tribune Freedom Museum found that 22% of Americans could name all five Simpson family members, compared with just 1 in 1,000 people who could name all five First Amendment freedoms."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002113807

Only 1 in 4 could name more than one first amendment right.

Only 1 in 1000? Yikes!
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 6:30 PM




off topic alert.

Just to let everyone know. My wife has had our first, and according to her last, child. He is 6 weeks early and in NICU right now. He needs prayer for sure but all things considered is doing well. He was 4 lbs 13 oz a birth and 18 in long.

 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 10:30 PM




I don't eat fries any more ... well rarely ... they just taste too good and so when I eat them my body decides to make them a more permanent fixture.

But when I eat fries with fried fish I love adding salt and vinegar to both.
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 11:05 PM




all 5 freedoms does take a bit of thought for your average person though. I can think of 4 right off the top of my head but had to think for the 5th. Well, actually I knew the 5th but I combined it with the 1st.

What I mean is I have it in my head to think of the establishment clause and freedom to exercise clause as "Freedom of religion" as opposed to "Freedom from religion" that so many seem to think of now.

Then you have Freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom to petition.

Anyways, I was worried that I was one of those 999 that didn't know all 5 protections. I think that many fall into the mental trap that I found myself in just now.

Honestly, though, I don't know the total of the amendments by heart. I generally know the protections afforded by them, but I'd have to look for some of the details and defiantly the exact order after the "bill of rights" Which was prohibition and which canceled prohibition ... I couldn't say but I know it happens.
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Tuesday July 8, 2008 @ 11:19 PM




Timbo wrote:

"The study by the new McCormick Tribune Freedom Museum found that 22% of Americans could name all five Simpson family members, compared with just 1 in 1,000 people who could name all five First Amendment freedoms."

●Here is a thought from George Washington regarding the Constitution.

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington

●Or even more succinctly; here is Jefferson:

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson

●It seems apparent to me that the Founding Fathers believed that the Constitution is simply a piece of paper without an armed populace to resist the natural tendency of government to expand its own powers while limiting those of the people. I believe that our history and current circumstances have proven that their judgment was spot-on.

 
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 1:49 AM




For the sake of argument, here is the general police argument and response to the latest Supreme Court gun case (paraphrased from several interviews with various city police chiefs that I heard reacting to the decision):

People who own guns are more likely to have them used against them than they are to use them for their own protection (shot with your own gun). They also point out the increased danger of shooting yourself or another loved one by mistake (kid shoots sibling), they claim that gun ownership can allow a confrontation to escalate to a deadly one when it wouldn't have been so otherwise (shoot your wife during an argument) and finally, they claim that gun ownership puts more guns in the hands of evildoers when they are stolen from the lawful owners.

These seem to be the general arguments against personal gun ownership. Some of these are true but even if that is so, it doesn't necessarily follow that the solution is banning firearms. We just have to accept these consequences as part of the right. More guns mean more people will die from guns in all these ways.

By the way, shooting someone in self defense, even at home, can still lead to jail for months awaiting a jury trial for attempted murder. Even if you win, your life is likely to be permanently altered. It took me a year and a two week jury trial to save a client's bacon but he sat in jail the whole time. We won but the cost to the client was extreme.

Of course, not shooting them could also have negative consequences as well although in my client's case, not shooting the guy would likely not have led to any injuries to anyone and my client wouldn't have had to sit in jail for a year before winning his case.

All in all....its a mixed bag. Using a gun against a person in any way in this day and age is going to have serious consequences. Then again, not too many bad guys will hang around to see whats next when they hear the sound of a shotgun racking a shell into the chamber.

Personally, I don't own a gun but I have no issue for those who find it useful or necessary. My works exposes me to the heartache that is often the result of firearm misuse. You take your chances either way.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 9:41 AM




Timbo wrote:

All in all....its a mixed bag. Using a gun against a person in any way in this day and age is going to have serious consequences. Then again, not too many bad guys will hang around to see whats next when they hear the sound of a shotgun racking a shell into the chamber.

●I believe the issue is far less of a mixed bag than portrayed by the police chiefs from cities that have strict gun bans. First, these same cities usually have the highest levels of violent crimes. For instance, Washington, D.C.—until recently—nearly had a complete gun ban while concurrently being known as the murder capital of the U.S. The reason for this is explained by economist John Lott from the American Enterprise Institute:

Criminals are deterred by higher penalties. Just as higher arrest and conviction rates deter crime, so does the risk that someone committing a crime will confront someone able to defend him or herself. There is a strong negative relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate—as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent.

●Lott’s quote is from an interview conducted by the University of Chicago. Lott deals with many of the usual misconstrued arguments for gun bans. It can be found here:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

●I also think your comment about the racking of a shotgun is the most germane insight in regard to self-defense (a separate issue from firearms as a deterrent against tyrannical government). The most interesting and seldom published statistic is the number of “defensive gun uses” that never end in the discharge of a weapon. The overwhelming majority of DGU’s end in the perpetrator hightailing it out of the line of fire. Dr. Gary Kleck of Florida State University has done the most extensive work on this subject. Before his definitive work, there were thirteen surveys that indicated a range of between 800,000 and 2.5 million DGU’s annually by law abiding citizens. In Dr. Kleck’s study he substantiated that there are about two million defensive gun uses per year with only a tiny fraction ending in the discharge of the gun. I believe that this is the single most important and least broadcast statistic in regard to firearm possession. In short, the possibility of a deterring an assault or crime against one’s person (particularly for a woman) by possessing a firearm is far greater than the possibility of shooting an assailant. The same is true, I believe, in regard to deterring tyrannical government. Certainly the Founding Fathers believed this to be true. I also believe that those who would rule with an “iron fist,” ironically, agree with me.

 
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 10:48 AM




Thom,

I have to take issue with the facts/statistics you cited in the last post. I looked up the crime stats for Texas which has by far the most relaxed firearm carry laws of any state and probably one of the highest gun ownership rates and concealed weapon permit rates in the country. Nevertheless, the violent crime rate in Texas is significantly higher per 100,000 persons than that of the United States in general. The murder rate is also higher per capita. The crime rates in Texas don't appear to be statistically out of synch with the historical rise and fall of crime since 1960 in this country.

I think this means that with more guns, and more people carrying guns around, there does not appear to be a corresponding reduction in violent crime at all. Maybe I'm missing something but Texas has higher crime rates, higher gun ownership and a far higher percentage of citizens walking around armed.

Based on Mr. Lott's hypothesis, one would expect that the crime rates in Texas would be significantly different from elsewhere and they aren't as far as I can tell.

The stats are here:
Texas- http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

United States- http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

All other states are available as well. I can't seem to reconcile Mr. Lotts statements as quoted with the numbers.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 4:47 PM




By the way, the DGU argument is the best one for firearm ownership. For protection, the threat of force is far better than actually having to use it. Once you get to that point, things are already going very wrong.

By way of example, many police officers go their entire career without firing a shot in anger, at a person. It is the obvious threat that a firearm poses that allows an officer to have a career and never shoot.

 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 4:54 PM




Here is John Lott's blog for a bit more insight into his insights.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 6:41 PM




In my view, this is the most powerful argument against gun control:

"Unfortunately, an almost perfect inverse correlation exists between those who are affected by gun laws, particularly bans, and those whom enforcement should affect. Those easiest to disarm are the responsible and law abiding citizens whose guns represent no meaningful social problem. Irresponsible and criminal owners, whose gun possession creates or exacerbates so many social ills, are the ones most difficult to disarm." Don Kates, Tennessee Law Review, "Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda?", 1994.

"Don Kates is a retired American professor of constitutional and criminal law, and a criminologist associated with the Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco, California. He is co-author of Armed: New Perspectives On Gun Control (Prometheus, 2001). As a civil liberties lawyer he has represented gun owners attacking the constitutionality of certain firearms laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Kates
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 6:57 PM




Regarding crime rates in Texas,

I am curious how those crime rates compare when looked at based on location of the populace. Texas is a huge state (3rd largest) but a significant portion of the population is found in only a couple of metropolitan areas. This, of course, is why the Dallas-Fort Worth region has the worst traffic in the country. Too many ppl coming into an overcrowded city from nearby rural areas. They have rules only a crazy person could understand.

Anyways, I'm curious if the crime rate is driven by those metropolitan areas and if it would turn out that fewer ppl legally own guns within those populations driving the crime rates. Without a break down that considers these things, it is just not reasonable to look at Texas as an example. There is just too much diversity in the metropolitan, suburban, and rural lives of Texas. It is really more like 3 different states. This doesn't even count the crime caused by narcotic traffic moving up I-35 into Oklahoma for the I-44, I-35, and I-40 junction that is OKC.

On a side note, it may be that Texas is the exception that proves the rule because they are so bad they can get simple things like this right. Course, that may be the Okie in me talking.
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Wednesday July 9, 2008 @ 9:15 PM




Here is a study that links gun ownership with higher homicide rates.

"Results. In region- and state-level analyses, a robust association between rates of household firearm ownership and homicide was found. Regionally, the association exists for victims aged 5 to 14 years and those 35 years and older. At the state level, the association exists for every age group over age 5, even after controlling for poverty, urbanization, unemployment, alcohol consumption, and nonlethal violent crime.

Conclusions. Although our study cannot determine causation, we found that in areas where household firearm ownership rates were higher, a disproportionately large number of people died from homicide.

The United States has higher rates of firearm ownership than do other developed nations, and higher rates of homicide.1,2 Of the 233 251 people who were homicide victims in the United States between 1988 and 1997, 68% were killed with guns,3 of which the large majority were handguns.4

Case–control studies suggest that the presence of a gun in the home is a risk factor for homicide in the home, that the purchase of a handgun from a licensed dealer is associated with becoming a homicide victim, and that gun ownership may be a risk factor for committing homicide (although other studies found no association with homicide perpetration). Most, but not all cross-sectional studies have found a positive association between various measures of firearm availability and overall rates of homicide, a trend that holds across regions, states, cities, and counties.

Nationally representative studies of the effect of firearm prevalence on rates of homicide have been hampered by the lack of direct measures of firearm ownership within areas smaller than the US Census regions and by uncertainty regarding the validity of firearm ownership proxies. Our study extends previous work by using recent data, looking across both regions and all 50 states, disaggregating victims by age, and adjusting for potential confounders, including poverty, urbanization, unemployment, alcohol consumption, aggravated assault, forcible rape, and robbery. In addition, we used the 2 best currently available measures of rates of household firearm ownership—direct survey-based measures for regional analyses and a rigorously validated proxy of household gun ownership for region- and state-level analyses."

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447364
Originally published in American Journal of Public Health 2002
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Thursday July 10, 2008 @ 3:15 PM




Timbo,

You may be more on top of this.

Do you know what ratio of homicides are 'relative' situation vs. 'stranger' situations? I have been of the impression that most people who die by guns know their assailant. Is my impression correct?

thanks for the research

ron
 
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by AZRON (PM , CC ) on Thursday July 10, 2008 @ 3:42 PM




Ron,

Here you go:

In 14% of all murders, the victim and the offender were strangers.

* Spouses and family members made up about 15% of all victims.

* About one-third of the victims were acquaintances of the assailant.

* The victim/offender relationship was undetermined in over one-third of homicides.

Victim/Offender Relationship, 1976-2005

All homicides,
1976-2005


Percent Number
Total 100.0% 594,276
Stranger 13.9% 82,428
Nonstranger
Spouse 7.0% 41,700
Other family 8.0% 47,358
Boyfriend/Girlfriend 3.8% 22,829
Other Acquaintance 32.1% 190,767
Relationship undetermined 35.2% 209,194

Homicides committed by friends/acquaintances and strangers are more likely to involve guns than those committed by initmates or family members

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/relationship.htm

There are graphs and additional information at the Department of Justice site (posted above) that address gun homicides vs. other means. Not easy to post here but informative.

Hope this answers your question.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Thursday July 10, 2008 @ 4:22 PM




Bottom line is you are statistically more likely to be murdered by someone you know but not necessarily a family member. If your killer falls into this category, they are more likely to use a gun as the method.

and...

a small percentage of murderers are unknown to the victim. This is consistent with my experience that most murder victims are not entirely innocent and put themselves in life threatening situations. (Think drug deal gone bad or gang fight). The cases where a wholly innocent person is murdered is much more unusual (and scary to most of us) and so gets a huge amount of attention when it occurs. This inflates our perception of the danger when the actual possibility of being the victim of a random murder is pretty low.

The fact is, if you play the odds, the probabilities, you are probably safer not to own a gun. Thats if you accept the statistics. As with every statistical analysis, someone has to be on the edge of the curve though and its always a tragedy when the worst happens.

Like driving a car, you take your chances every day. The odds are in your favor but thats small consolation if you are the one in the wreck.

 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Thursday July 10, 2008 @ 4:41 PM




So while my wife might kill me, she is more likely to use a pillow while I sleep or drug my food rather than load my shot gun and blow my head off. Good to know. I'll let her eat first from now on :)

I still feel safer with the gun in the house. We don't have to worry about the neighborhood as much except those pesky neighbors that live in the woods.

Question,

In these statistics it seems to reference guns in general, but in a couple of your statements you mention handguns. Do any of these studies show a statistically significant difference between homicide rates in households with only a rifle/shotgun used for hunting v. households with handguns in addition to or in place of?

Also, do the studies take into account purpose for purchasing a gun? For example, if I buy a gun for self defense because I have reason to believe I will need to defend myself, then it is reasonable to assume that I am more likely to be a victim of violent crime.

Consider this, let's say I feel that a neighbor, not the bears, is likely to break into my house and attack me, so I go buy a gun to protect myself. Then this neighbor does break into my house and either I kill him or he kills me. At this point the statistics make it seem that the presence of the gun caused the crime where in reality the presence of the gun was a result of a perceived crime.

Now, I would be willing to accept that the statistics rightly show that the presence of the gun escalates the crime when the crime does happen.

Consider that I believe a neighbor is likely to break into my home and attack me after several heated arguments over [insert issue here]. Instead of buying a gun I brush up on a self defense course. The neighbor later confronts me and instead of pulling a gun to scare him away I try to avoid confrontation like I was taught and then defend myself. We end up with some nasty bruises and realize that [insert previous issue here] is too silly to fight over. Now he doesn't have to go home and get his gun and kill me.

Of course, one might look at the whole picture then, and see if other violent crime is lower in places with higher gun ownership or statistically similar to similar places. If we find that violent crime is actually lower, then it seems that what has happened is a trend of lesser crimes being avoided to the point that when violent crimes do happen they tend to be more likely to escalate to death because of the presence of a gun.

In this situation, my neighbor is aware that I have a gun and is afraid to confront me for fear of being killed or seriously injured by my gun. The situation festers until my neighbor ends up hitting me. I start to leave and suddenly he remembers the gun and grabs a log with which he bashes my head in. Now I am dead and he knows I can't get my gun but ...

Of course, it may well happen that my neighbor, knowing that I have the gun, is just resentful but able to control himself relying on words instead of physical attacks. This may be the more likely result if statistics show that there is a measurable and relevant decrease in violent crime when guns are present, but if the neighbor cannot control himself, then it is more likely that the incident will result in death because of the gun.

Of course, this is pure conjecture based on guestimations without any statistics to work on. Which is why I ask what the statistics might show.
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Thursday July 10, 2008 @ 8:15 PM




Puri,

The statistics are from the U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI. It is true, statistics can often be used to support different arguments and in the case of gun control, often does.

One of the reasons I posted different studies (that generally come from the same data) is to illustrate this. Obviously it follows that more guns are likely to lead to more gun violence of all types but, that doesn't mean that guns lead to violence. It only means that more gun numbers will necessarily yield a proportional increase in gun related incidents.

For each person, gun ownership, like many other choices, is a risk/reward analysis and an individual might have a very legitimate reason to own one or not.

I can say that handguns are used in the large majority of murders involving firearms rather than shotguns or rifles.

I will check for a specific number. The sites I posted have tons of crime data.

I also have a question. I'm sure that in the crimes prevented by citizens using firearms (discussed above), that many of those averted crimes are property crimes rather than other violent crimes. (I'm sure some violent crimes are are prevented as well).

As a Christian, when can I apply deadly force, or threaten it (ie.use a firearm), to protect property of any kind?

When is violence the correct response for a Christian?

I have trouble with the idea of justifying the use of any force as an individual Christian to protect stuff, money, a watch, a car, tv or anything else of this world.

I'm reminded of Matthew 5:38-43.

"38"(AZ)You have heard that it was said, '(BA)AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'

39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but (BB)whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your [g]shirt, let him have your [h]coat also.

41"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

42"(BC)Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43"(BD)You have heard that it was said, '(BE)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (BF)and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, (BG)love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Thursday July 10, 2008 @ 11:56 PM




Puri,

This page has the numbers you asked for.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm

Essentially, handgun to other firearm ratios for homicides is about 3:1 more or less consistently for many years. The ratio got higher for handguns during the murder spike in the 1980s and early 90s.

This page will also provide valuable data:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

These pages are all US Department of Justice pages.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Friday July 11, 2008 @ 12:08 AM




Timbo,

Thanks for checking on that. Regarding your question. I generally feel that non-violence in the face of violence is the better path. Specifically, the Law give us "the right" to defend ourselves and our property. This has not been done away with and so it is not a sin to defend yourself or your property.

However, Jesus gives us a higher command and so it is better to follow that higher command over keeping to the lesser command.

It is sort of like this, lets say the speed limit on th road is 65 mph. Now lets say I am going 65 mph. I am not breaking the law at all right? Well lets also say that there is a sheet of ice on the road. I'm still not breaking the law per se, but if I get into an accident it will certainly be my fault for exceeding a reasonable speed for the conditions and I would get a ticket reflecting that.

Getting into self defense is sort of like that. You end up on a slippery slope if you aren't careful and can move from acceptable defense to unacceptable hate and murder pretty easily. Now one might not be breaking the Law by following it to the letter, but if one does fall into sin by taking this route they are going to be guilty.

Fortunately God's mercy extends even to this and we are covered by the grace of Christ Jesus by the blood, so if we do fall while taking the lesser path to righteousness we can be cleaned from the grime and set on our way once again.
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Friday July 11, 2008 @ 9:14 AM




Timbo:

●In regard to the affect of right to carry laws on the Texas’ crime rate, the Center for Policy Analysis notes a significant drop in crime in Texas well above the national average immediately following the implementation of Senate Bill 60, the Concealed Handgun Law. The germane statistics compare crime rates before and after these laws are put in place. Texas had a crime rate in the early 1990s that was 38% higher than the national average.
Center for Policy Analysis http://www.ncpa.org/press/nrsb052600.html

●Additionally, John Holmes, former Texas’ Harris County district attorney, wrote to Jerry Patterson, author of Senate Bill 60, several years after the passage of the law.

“As you know, I was very outspoken in my opposition to the passage of the Concealed Handgun Act. I did not feel that such legislation was in the public interest and presented a clear and present danger to law abiding citizens by placing more handguns on our streets,” Holmes wrote. “Boy was I wrong. Our experience in Harris County , and indeed state-wide, has proven my initial fears absolutely groundless.”

●The Cato Institute has produced a very detailed report on the affect of Concealed Carry Laws. Their report covers the whole history of gun laws in the U.S., all of the competing statistical evaluations, and all of the relevant arguments from both sides of the issue. I consider it to be one of the most balanced and well-researched articles on the subject available on the web. It can be found here:

Http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn-firearms/Snyder/right2carry.html

●Here are a few notable quotes from the Cato study:

In short, it is not the number of guns but their distribution--that is, the people who have the guns and what they are using them for--that matters. The available evidence clearly indicates that firearms in the hands of permit holders are not a law enforcement problem, are not a source of social harm, and that irresponsible use of firearms by permit holders is the very rare exception.

Further, according to both surveys, 45-46 percent of the gun users believed that they or someone else might have been killed had they not used the gun in self-defense. Even if someone's life was saved in only 5 percent of such cases, however, the surveys imply that 100,000 (5 percent of 2 million) lives would be saved each year by the defensive use of firearms, far surpassing the number of lives lost to gun violence and suicide.

While opponents of licensing laws are not wrong to point out that those adverse results are potential consequences of the widespread carrying of weapons, we need no longer speculate about what the effects of such laws might be. We now have at least 10 years of actual evidence from 25 different states with diverse rural and metropolitan populations, including the cities of Miami, Houston, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Richmond, Atlanta, New Orleans, Seattle, and Portland, regarding perhaps as many as 1 million permit holders carrying their weapons for hundreds of millions of man-hours. The results are in, and they show unequivocally that (a) the number of persons currently in possession of permits to carry firearms ranges from 1 to 5 percent of the state's population; (b) criminals do not apply for permits; (c) permit holders do not take to settling their traffic disputes or arguments with guns, or "take the law into their own hands"; (d) shall-issue licensing states have almost no problems with violent criminality or inappropriate brandishing of firearms by permit holders; and (e) some permit holders have used their guns to defend themselves and others. There appears to be no reported case of any permit holder adjudged to have wrongfully killed another in connection with carrying and using his weapon in public. As of this writing, shall-issue licensing laws are creating no reported law enforcement problem in any of the 25 states that have enacted them. Dodge City has not returned; the blood is not running in the streets.

●Most importantly:

Shall-issue licensing systems are based on the right of self-defense, that is, the right to use lethal force to repel a criminal assault that threatens imminent danger of death or grievous bodily injury. Every state recognizes a right of its citizens to use lethal force in self-defense. Self-defense, so defined, is not lawlessness; it is in accord with the law. It is, in fact, in accord with the same law the police rely on in using lethal force. The right to self-defense belongs to each person, not merely those who the police or other licensing authorities believe "deserve" to have that right.

 
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 12, 2008 @ 12:26 PM




Thom,

Texas has always had a very strict death penalty so far as I know. Why is it then, that the homicide rate was 38% higher than the national average prior to enacting concealed handgun laws and still runs higher than the norm now when a strict death penalty is argued to reduce such violence?
 
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by PuriChristos (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 12, 2008 @ 1:36 PM




Good questions, Puri

ron
 
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by AZRON (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 12, 2008 @ 1:50 PM




You soud like an intelligent educated person, that might have a point of view on all subjects. I am curiouse as to what your concept is of God?? I am also curiouse, as to what your concep
is of Angels??? I also would lke to know if you believe in life of another galaxy??? Mary
 
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by angel747 (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 12, 2008 @ 3:38 PM




Thom,

The last paragraph you posted made me smile because I have used that argument several times in jury trials. I have won a couple of them but in each case the fellow was in jail till the case was over. Anywhere between five months and 2 years. Even though we won, shooting someone changed the shooter's life forever. Pretty words in theory, tough row to hoe if you get caught up in a real situation.

Also, very few gun owners have permits. Many citizens own unregistered firearms as well. While it may be that people that go through the permit process don't murder people, I still think one has to acknowledge that more firearms necessarily would lead to more firearm related incidents of all types. This has been the point. You accept certain risks either way.

Personally, the list of possible uses I would have for a firearm make possession of one at this point a waste of resources.

I'm interested in your answer to my question about when a Christian uses force. I appreciated Puri's answer but as he pointed out, it seems that Christ holds us to a higher standard- to meet force or injustice against us with love and charity, to not respond in kind. Isn't that what Christ is saying in the verses I posted above?

Puri,

The answer to your question is that the death penalty does not deter homicide. There may be other reasons a society might use to kill some of its members for their behavior but in reality, having the death penalty doesn't reduce murder one bit.

 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 12, 2008 @ 10:55 PM




Its hard to see how one can point to Texas as a shining example of the effectiveness of firearm carry laws to reduce crime. Witness this example of Texas rankings from 2000:

"In the year 2000 Texas had an estimated population of 20,851,820 which ranked the state 2nd in population. For that year the State of Texas had a total Crime Index of 4,955.5 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 8th highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime Texas had a reported incident rate of 545.1 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 13th highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 4,410.4 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 10th highest. Also in the year 2000 Texas had 5.9 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 17th highest rate for Murder. Texas’s 37.7 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 17th highest. For Robbery, per 100,000 people, Texas’s rate was 145.1 which ranked the state as having the 16th highest for Robbery. The state also had 356.3 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 13th highest position for this crime among the states. For every 100,000 people there were 906.3 Burglaries, which ranks Texas as having the 12th highest standing among the states. Larceny - Theft were reported 3,057.4 times per hundred thousand people in Texas which standing is the 10th highest among the states. Vehicle Theft occurred 446.8 times per 100,000 people, which fixed the state as having the 13th highest for vehicle theft among the states."

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

The state with the highest rate of folks with guns still has a per capita crime rate in the top half of all 50 states in every crime category and in the top 10 overall. I cannot understand how one can say carrying firearms has a significant impact on reducing crime. The stats are there to view.

It is also worth noting that Texas has, by far, the highest execution rate of any state, imposing its death penalty at an exponentially higher rate than any other state and most countries, yet that seems to have no effect on the murder rate either.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Saturday July 12, 2008 @ 11:12 PM




One other thought for this morning.

I think it is dangerously misleading to attribute the passage of a single law as the cause of a significant reduction in crime. As an example, in California, proponents of the states 3 Strikes law rightly claim that crime decreased after it was implemented. The problem is that crime decreased across the country at that time, including in states that had no 3 strikes law. In fact, overall, the decrease in crime was greater in the U.S. than it was in California.

So, was the cause of the lower crime rate in California the result of the 3 Strikes law or was it the result of the multitude of other factors that effect the crime rate, part of the overall trends?

One has to have an agenda other than a factual analysis to conclude that the 3 strikes law was the cause of the crime reduction. In the same way and in light of Texas' crime rate, I have the same trouble accepting that the Texas carry law was the sole cause of a reduction in crime there. Wouldn't there have to be some statistical difference that makes it inconsistent with national trends? Wouldn't that continue as more guns entered the population?

If we all have guns, more folks (all varieties) will be shot. This seems self evident. We do have guns. It seems the only choice in the end is whether you are more comfortable being one of those with or without one.
 
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by Timbo (PM , CC ) on Sunday July 13, 2008 @ 9:32 AM




Ever notice how people always think the most unbiased, detailed and thorough study on any given subject is the one that agrees with their position?

The CATO Institute will, of course, find that permitted gun ownership reduces crime rates as referenced above. Those opposed will find the opposite, as we see in papers such as this.

Given all the conflicting data and the multiple conflicting interpretations of the relevant statistics I am left thinking that there really isn't strong evidence one way or the other. The National Academy of Sciences agrees stating in their 2004 review of current research and data that "there is no credible evidence that 'right-to-carry' laws, which allow qualified adults to carry concealed handguns, either decrease or increase violent crime." (See, they agree with me. They can't be biased .)

Given that any links between right to carry laws and violent crime's increase/decrease are tenuous at best, and usually only supported by those with pre-existing biases, I kind of have to err on the side of caution and prefer that we try and keep the handgun population to a minimum.

One thing is certain, if there were no handguns there would be no deaths by handguns. Everything else seems to be playing with statistics.
 
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by Meta4 (PM , CC ) on Monday July 14, 2008 @ 9:22 AM


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   
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